I came to a SAD REALIZATION when I attempted to debate on ABC.Com's web-blog set up to allow atheist's and Christians to debate: So I logged in as "GODTIMING" to put up some facts AGAINST SOME ATHEIST'S. What happened was this: I was PRESSED FOR TIME because I had to work at 5:00 pm and it was about 4:00 pm so I did what I could with LIMITED TIME I copied and pasted an answer to the current line of reasoning going on { of course by the time I got the paste up the line of their thoughts had moved on} after this other atheist's joined the argument and then things digressed to INSULTS AND MOCKING {That didn't surprise me at all, having delt with their LACK OF REAL ANSWERS WHEN IT COMES TO REALLY FACING ISSUES WE HAVE WITH THEM} what caused me to be surprised was the level of TOTAL DENIAL of VALID FACTS AGAINST WHAT THEY SPOUT AS TRUTH! Here's what happened when I gave a legitimate answer to the question at the time FROM SOMEONE ELSE'S WEB-SITE about the apostle Paul and his knowledge of Jesus, who they say was a GHOST NOT A REAL PERSON..... "GODTIMING, which Christian/Creationist site did you copy and past all that from?" "Great......another cut and paste master on the loose. Too bad you can't express you own words from your own mind." "HERE ARE THE FACTS.......oh yes, and how do YOU know that what you're copying and pasting from a Christian/Creationist site are absolute facts??" " JUST A REMINDER....that Paul never met a living Jesus......Only a GHOST....hahahaha...this was before we had medication for people who talked with Ghosts.....These days, a man like Paul would be in Happy Acres weaving baskets. (So quoting anything Paul may have said is folly...........Paul was ignorant of the Gospel Jesus.....Paul didn't know anything)" HERE WAS MY REPLY: "FACTS ARE FACTS...SOME WAS PASTED MOST WAS NOT! What would you do if it all was mine?complain that I 'm to smart to answer? I don't know how many answers have to pas before you simply prove a point without attacking me...what was posted was FACTS...AND THOSE FACTS ARE AS VALID AS MY PERSONAL FACTS MIXED IN ARE THEY NOT? So answer them all and we'll continue the discussion of Jesus but YOU MUST REPLY TO EVERY THING I'VE POSTED!" AND THEN THIS : "GODTIMING...We know you copied and pasted everyone of those posts....!...hahaha....It wasn't even the subject....I guess you missed that....huh.?" THIS IS A LIE THE SUBJECT WAS CHANGED WHILE I WAS POSTING NOT AFTER IT WAS POSTED- THEY DON'T GIVE ANSWERS JUST INSULTS WHENEVER THE COVERSATION TILTS TO OUR SIDE OF THE EVIDENCE! "YOU MUST REPLY TO EVERY THING I'VE POSTED!...Damn Christians, and their rules!! Answer me this, and I will think about answering you, but I believe I already posted facts that contradict what you say are facts. How do we know who's facts are correct?? Do you believe in Evolution, or the Genesis story?" FUNNY HOW WE HAVE SO MANY RULES TO FOLLOW AND ALL I ASKED WAS "REPLY TO MY POST" THAT IS TRUE DENIAL! I REPLYED AFTER SOME MORE MOCKING FROM THEM: "Well I see that you've digressed to insults which only proves you have no REAL RESPONSE, I KNOW THE FACT I POST WITHOUT BUT I HAVE TO STOP SOON TO GO TO WORK SO I HAVE LIMITED TIME AND THAT'S FASTER...STILL NO RESPONSE TO THESE MANY FACTS? The living Christ is not a GHOST, IF YOU HAD EVER READ THE BIBLE YOU WOULD NOT HAVE MADE THAT BLUNDER...HE WAS RAISED WITH A BODY THAT COULD BE TOUCHED, AND HE COULD EAT AS WELL! It is so small an argument to belittle Paul's knowledge of Jesus, IF you knew about his Jewish upbringing as a Jewish leader that argument doesn't hold water and you know it!" THEY REPLIED WITH THIS RIDICULOUS STATEMENT : " Nowhere does Paul equate his hero, Jesus Christ, with a virgin born miracle worker from Nazareth recently put to death in Judea. Pauline epistles considered to be genuine were written between 50 and 60. They predate the gospels and are among the earliest extant Christian writings. For that reason one would expect them to contain a wealth of details about Jesus' life and teachings, details confirming the gospel accounts. But this is far from the case. Concerning the alleged virgin birth Paul never mentions Mary. He says only that, Jesus was born of a woman, born under the law (Galatians 4:4). The time, place and circumstances of Jesus’ alleged miraculous conception and birth, recorded in such great detail in the gospels of Matthew and Luke, are never mentioned. Paul says not one word about Joseph, Jesus’ surrogate father who figures so prominently in the birth narratives. Also, Paul apparently never heard of John the Baptist who not only baptized Jesus, but who is said to have been instrumental in the fulfillment of certain Old Testament prophecies allegedly confirming Jesus as the long awaited messiah. In Romans 1:3 Paul tells us without proof that Jesus was in fact a direct descendant of King David. Paul's writings predate the gospels of Matthew and Luke by some twenty five to thirty years. He was a contemporary of Jesus yet he obviously never heard of the virgin birth touted as one of Christianity's most important miracles." AND THIS: "Hey Bob, we both know that Christians can be very deceptive, and try to turn the tables on us about throwing out evidence. I'm waiting to see if they believe in Evolution (which I know aint happening) because I won't waste my time on ignorance. I jumped off the fence earlier this year, as I was agnostic. I am now a full fledged Atheist, with no belief whatsoever in A god. I am starting to do the research on my own, as Sandra did. I liked her de conversion story a lot. I typed in a google search "deceptions of religion", and found this blog. http://exposing-religious-deception.blogspot.com/2006/09/religion-is-blatant-deception-and.html. I am learning quite a bit from this guy and his coleagues, and am starting to do the research on my own, so I know all the facts. Any ideas of the best place to go to learn the truth? I believe what this guy says, but I want to see it for myself, so I don't turn into GODTIMING, and be a copy and paste monster. Thanks!"
THIS IS WHAT I SAID TO THEM ALL AFTER THE LITTLE INSULT'S: "What amazes me is many of you copy each other all the time and I don't care about that....it's about answering the facts not where the facts came from is it not? All these facts are there to answer on the net BUT I noticed that NONE OF YOU BOTHER TO DO IT-I'VE SEEN MANY AN ATHEIST SITE AND THE EXACT SAME IDEAS ARE PARROTTED BACK AND FORTH WITHOUT A HINT OF THIS MOCKERY FROM YOU! Go to their sites and tell them to come up with some new stuff because nothing is new about anything Atheist's say." THIS IS AFTER ALL WHAT ALL ATHEIST'S DO- COPY FROM EACH OTHER- SO I DO NOT KNOW WHY THEY WOULD OBJECT TOO IF I USE THE VAST KNOWLEDGE OF OTHERS TO PRESENT FACTS TO OFFER ALTERNITIVES TO THEIR SET THEORY'S! AFTER THIS THEY JUST CONTINUED THE MADDNESS OF SILLY POSTING LIKE THIS :" In Philippians 3:10-11 Paul declares with great emotion, "That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead." Yet when he returns to Jerusalem it is merely to visit Peter, as mentioned above. He never expresses the slightest desire to see Bethlehem, Jesus’ birthplace, Nazareth, his home town, the sites of his preaching, the upper room where he is supposed to have held the fabled Last Supper, nor Calvary where the ultimate sacrifice was allegedly made. Most astonishing of all, however, is that there is not one hint of a pilgrimage to the tomb in which the resurrection, the center piece of Paul’s theology, is supposed to have taken place. Paul makes no references to Jesus' ethical and moral teachings in situations where it would have been in his best interest to have done so. He, in fact, contradicts some of them. For example, Paul held that gentile Christians need not obey Jewish law to be saved (Gal. 3:8-9 and 5:6). Evidently he was unaware that this was a direct contradiction of the teachings of Jesus on this matter (Matthew 5:17-19). Furthermore when Paul does make such ethical pronouncements as "Bless those who persecute you" (Romans 12:14), he does not cite the authority of Jesus (Matthew 5:10-12). We can only conclude that he never heard of the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus’ prescription for Christian living. Paul invented his own rules and invented Christianity.." "GODTIMING, those are not our facts, those are Christian's facts, your facts. How can we answer something that has no merit?" DID YOU GET THAT?....THIS THE PITIFUL STATE OF THE ALL KNOWLEDGABLE ATHEIST AGENDA..WE KNOW ALL THERE IS TO KNOW AND YOUR "FACTS" ARE OF NO MERIT! I responded to this this way...."That's a nice try but I thought "COPYING & PASTING" ideas from one place to another was WRONG? Paul SIMPLY DID NOT REPEAT TO THE CHURCH WHAT IT ALREADY KNEW FROM 4 GOSPELS, Paul was called NOT to the Jews but to the Gentile world to expound upon what Jesus told him to teach personally. It's amazing HOW MUCH THE BIBLE BOTHERS YOU YET YOU SAY ITS JUST AS POWERFUL AS ANY OTHER BOOK...WHY IS THAT? If God is NON-EXISTENT WHY IS THEIR ANY DEBATE AT ALL...WOULDN'T HE HAVE GIVEN UP THE GHOST A LONG TIME AGO IF THERE WAS NO EVIDENCE OF HIS EXISTENCE?" I would also add that VISITING THE SITES THAT JESUS LIVED IN AND KNEW would have also BEEN AGAINST WHAT JESUS REVEALED TO PAUL ABOUT HIM" Philippians 3:10
[For my determined purpose is] that I may know Him [that I may progressively become more deeply and intimately acquainted with Him, perceiving and recognizing and understanding the wonders of His Person more strongly and more clearly], and that I may in that same way come to know the power outflowing from His resurrection [ which it exerts over believers], and that I may so share His sufferings as to be continually transformed [in spirit into His likeness even] to His death, [in the hope]"
1 Corinthians 2:2
"For I resolved to know nothing (to be acquainted with nothing, to make a display of the knowledge of nothing, and to be conscious of nothing) among you except Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and Him crucified." PAUL'S FOCUS WAS ON THE RESSURECTED CHRIST NOT THE JESUS WHO LIVED IN THE FLESH, THIS IS NOT A CONTRADICTION AT ALL...... 1 Peter 1:18
"You must know (recognize) that you were redeemed (ransomed) from the useless (fruitless) way of living inherited by tradition from [your] forefathers, not with corruptible things [such as] silver and gold," EVEN PETER KNEW THAT THESE SUPERFISHAL RELIGIOUS IDEALS THAT ATHEIST'S VEIW AS "Christian" they ARE NOT, VISITING HOLY SITES IS A PAGAN TRADITION COPIED BY SOME DENOMINATIONS AND RELIGIONS AROUND THE WORLD BUT GOD IS NOT IN IT.....AT ALL...PERIOD! Galatians 1:11
"For I want you to know, brethren, that the Gospel which was proclaimed and made known by me is not man's gospel [a human invention, according to or patterned after any human standard]." It is not and has never been my intention to DISMISS OR DEMEAN ANY ONE IN A SEARCH FOR TRUTH as the scripture says in : 2 Timothy 2:25
"He must correct his opponents with courtesy and gentleness, in the hope that God may grant that they will repent and come to know the Truth [that they will perceive and recognize and become accurately acquainted with and acknowledge it]," I WAS NEVER RUDE THOUGH I WAS FIRM WITH THEM AND THEY RESPONDED WITH MOCKING AND AVOIDENCE! HERE IS THE VERSE MY NEW FRIENDS DID NOT SEEM TO KNOW ABOUT THAT BLOWS THEIR THEROY OUT OF THE WATER! 2 Corinthians 5:15-17 "And He died for all, so that all those who live might live no longer to and for themselves, but to and for Him Who died and was raised again for their sake. Consequently, from now on we estimate and regard no one from a [purely] human point of view [in terms of natural standards of value]. [No] even though we once did estimate Christ from a human viewpoint and as a man, yet now [we have such knowledge of Him that] we know Him no longer [in terms of the flesh]. Therefore if any person is [ingrafted] in Christ (the Messiah) he is a new creation (a new creature altogether); the old [previous moral and spiritual condition] has passed away. Behold, the fresh and new has come!"
This is the reason there is NO mention of Paul VISITING HOLY SITES IN JERUSALEM...IT WASN'T IMPORTANT TO HIM AS A CHRISTIAN AS IT IS NOT TO ANY BELIEVER...NOW THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE CANNOT VISIT JERUSALEM AND THOSE SITES BUT IT IS NOT A "RELIGIOUS DUTY TO DO SO!" Galatians 2:16
"Yet we know that a man is justified or reckoned righteous and in right standing with God not by works of the Law, but [only] through faith and [absolute] reliance on and adherence to and trust in Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One). [Therefore] even we [ourselves] have believed on Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the Law [for we cannot be justified by any observance of the ritual of the Law given by Moses], because by keeping legal rituals and by works no human being can ever be justified (declared righteous and put in right standing with God)." This in no way was in disobedience to Jesus or the law of God,these rambelings of conrtadiction abound among atheist's and skeptic's without evidence when seen in their FULL CONTEXT, SOMETHING THAT MOST EVERY ATHEIST IS UNWILLING TO DO! "If you going to say that MY FACTS and YOUR FACTS are separate facts AND MINE ARE NOT WORTHY TO ANSWER,then your the one in deception my friend, FACTS ARE FACTS! I TOLD YOU THAT I DO NOT BELIEVE IN RELIGION AS A FAIR REPRESENTATION OF MY FAITH SO THAT "Dog don't hunt" as they say down south. Why keep beating that dead horse? Religion is a DEAD THING without any life, that's not what God is all about. So if you think that to insult me and dismiss MY FACTS AS NOT WORTH REFUTING" then I'm not sure if you even know any fact completely enough to debate God in the first place!"I have always believed that in order to truly know something you must experience it FIRST HAND {Mentally or Physically} NOT JUST"PARROT"what others say WITHOUT PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE of the subject! I understand what evolution teaches BUT disagree on the MECANISMS THAT CAUSE IT, the facts of NATURE DON'T AGREE WITH THOSE MECINISMS! *CONTENDING EARNESTLY FOR THE FAITH*
Logic, Debate and Apologetics
by
A.S.A. Jones
WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN DEBATE, DISCUSSION AND APOLOGETICS?
Both debate and apologetics make use of logic. Logic provides us with a means through which we can determine the truth value of opinions and the arguments that arise from a difference in opinion. Even though both debate and apologetics make use of logic, there is a gross difference between them. Apologetics attempts to explain our faith; its goal is to promote understanding. Discussion is also an attempt to honestly understand another's point of view while presenting one's own view. Debate, on the other hand, is designed to promote one's self. Debate is propaganda. The goal of debate isn’t to determine truth, but to win an argument and win an audience over to your way of thinking. One of the best introductory books about debate that I ever read was titled, “The Art of Deception”, by Nickolas Capaldi. That should give you some insight as to what debate is all about. It can be vicious! All too often, it becomes a study in bad sportsmanship. It’s all about knowing the rules in order to go about breaking them without getting caught. It’s about making other people look foolish and appear stupid in order to win the contest at any cost. It’s probably a compliment, in a way, that a lot of Christians don’t get involved in this type of debate, but when they do, they frequently end up looking like a person caught on the toilet after forgetting to lock the bathroom door. They know that something isn’t right in their opponent’s logic, but they just can’t say what it is for sure. They lose, not knowing why. They are made to feel defeated and puzzled. It isn’t because they lack intelligence, it’s because they aren’t familiar with playing a game of deception. There are any number of techniques that your opponent can use in an attempt to confuse you and make him appear victorious, without actually having a valid point. For instance, this is one of my favorite recipes:
1. Take a general statement and turn it into a ridiculous and exaggerated absolute.
2. Present a false analogy that will allow you to change the topic to something easier to defend.
3. Sprinkle lightly with witty insults.
4. Bake until half done.
5. Gloat.
This is called “Building a straw man, and burning it down”. The purpose of the following demonstration isn’t to make you think that your opposition will never have a solid leg to stand on; many atheists have valid arguments and present their case quite well. Its purpose is to show you, that even though your opponent’s argument may be full of holes and logical fallacies, it can give him the appearance of winning the debate. Consider this conversation, a variation of an old Dilbert gag:
Christian: Genesis 1:29 reads…”I give you every seed bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food…"
Skeptic: That's absurd. If you ate all of the vegetables and fruits in the whole world all at once your stomach would explode...
Christian: You're not supposed to eat them all at once...
Skeptic: Let me give you an analogy. If one country is more advanced than another, does it have the right to force the less advanced country to can and package its fruits and vegetables?
Christian: That's not the same thing.
Skeptic: Aha! So now you agree with me that slavery is wrong!
Christian: No I didn’t!
Skeptic: Oh you didn’t? So you admit then that the Bible promotes slavery?
Christian: It does not!
Skeptic: It says right here in Leviticus 25:47, “You may buy male and female slaves from the nations around you.” If you go against what the Bible says, you’re a hypocrite.
Christian: But that isn’t what it means!
Skeptic: Are you saying that the Bible doesn't mean what it says? You Christian slave mongers have a lot of nerve coming in here trying to save my soul.
Christian: I wasn’t trying to save your soul!
Skeptic: Oh you weren’t? You mean you don’t even care if I go to Hell??!! What kind of a Christian are you, anyway?
When an audience is less informed about the subject that is being debated than those who are debating it, it ends up relying on the presentation of the argument as much as the content when it makes its decision regarding it; in other words, it only listens with one ear! Now the audience will walk away with the distinct impression that you are a slave monger, a hypocrite, and an uncaring person; a person who doesn't eat his vegetables! This type of debate will not only aggravate you, but it effectively limits your opportunity to discuss anything of importance. You will end up feeding junk food to a person who is spiritually starving, discussing Greek instead of the gospel. When Christianity is attacked or questioned and we attempt to respond with apologetics, frequently we will find ourselves launched into debate instead of a meaningful discussion. When this happens, a Christian needs to be battle savvy in order to present his views with enough intelligence that hopefully will turn the debate back into a dialogue worth having. This example was designed to make you laugh and of course the deception here was blatant. But it’s the same technique that Darrow used in the Scopes trial.
HOW THE SCOPES TRIAL INFLUENCED AMERICA'S PERCEPTION OF CHRISTIANITY
In 1925, it was against the law to teach evolution in the public schools, so the ACLU placed ads in newspapers asking for a science teacher to volunteer to teach evolution in a classroom in order that he be arrested so that the law could be examined in a courtroom and hopefully overturned. John Scopes volunteered as the teacher. The ACLU hired a famous trial lawyer, Clarence Darrow, as his defense attorney and William Jennings Bryan, a prominent Presbyterian layman, and three-time Presidential candidate on the Democratic ticket, volunteered his services as counsel for the State. At some point during the proceedings, Christianity was put on trial in an effort to demonstrate the superiority of evolution as opposed to creationism in answering questions concerning the origins of life. Darrow called for a cross examination of Bryan and the debate that followed made Christian fundamentalism appear absurd, self-contradictory and confused. It affected the entire nation’s attitude concerning religion and science. Because of one man’s inability to defend his religion, all Christian fundamentalists, and Christianity itself, were given a black eye.
Bryan was not an ignoramus. He was intelligent, had authored many books about Christianity and he was a lawyer, but he was not familiar with playing a game of deception that involved his faith. Bryan suffered a fatal heart attack five days after the trial so he had very little opportunity to offer comments from hindsight. But let's examine a segment of the original transcript of the debate, along with an analysis and more appropriate responses in an effort to expose a card trick with words.
THE SCOPES TRIAL REVISITED
To see exactly what Bryan was up against, and what Darrow was up to, the transcript is available.
Darrow--Do you claim that everything in the Bible should be literally interpreted?
Right away, we know that if Bryan answers 'yes', he will be asked to defend some incredible and irrelevant points. If he says, 'no', then he will be asked how he can decide what is to be taken literally as opposed to figuratively. The former stance will open Bryan to ridicule; the latter may give the impression that Biblical interpretation is so liquid that it can't hold water!
Bryan--I believe everything in the Bible should be accepted as it is given there. Some of the Bible is given illustratively. For instance: "Ye are the salt of the earth.'' I would not insist that man was actually salt, or that he had flesh of salt, but it is used in the sense of salt as saving God's people
This was a good answer, but Bryan didn't take a stronger, offensive position. We see that Darrow keeps hold of the ball with his next statement:
Darrow--But when you read that Jonah swallowed the whale--or that the whale swallowed Jonah, excuse me please--how do you literally interpret that?
Oh, Krikey! Look at the fangs on that one! See how Darrow is going to make the absurd even more absurd by feigning an error where Jonah swallows the whale! A nasty, dirty, but effective tactic! You have to admire that type of deviousness, even when it comes from the opposition.
Bryan--When I read that a big fish swallowed Jonah-- it does not say whale.
Bryan is correct when he makes the point that the account of Jonah in Jonah says that he was swallowed by a great fish, but he should have kept his mouth shut, instead of playing right into Darrow's game. Bryan should have been aware of Jesus referring to the great fish as a whale, in Matthew 12:40, and let Darrow slide, instead of trying to show that he knew the exact phrase used in Jonah in an effort to show that Darrow didn't. Bryan is guilty here of underestimating his opponent and of not thinking two or three moves ahead. What purpose would it have served for Bryan to bring up this point? At best, Bryan could have specifically named the verse, Jonah 1:17, and corrected Darrow in a more specific manner that wouldn't have allowed him to get caught in the upcoming fundy trap: "When I read that a big fish swallowed Jonah, in Jonah 1:17, the term used was 'fish', not whale." At worst, however, this would only provide Darrow with an opportunity to make the allegation that the Bible is filled with contradictions.
Darrow--Doesn't it? Are you sure?
Look at this! Darrow is now giving Bryan an opportunity to bring up the verse in Matthew. When your opponent asks you a question, such as, "Are you sure?", it should be an immediate tip-off that he knows something that he thinks you do not. Now is not the time to be humble! Bryan should have been searching his mental banks for that passage in Matthew and spewing it.
Bryan--That is my recollection of it, a big fish; and I believe it; and I believe in a God who can make a whale and can make a man, and make both do what He pleases.
Oh! He misses the hint entirely! He is too anxious to defend the absurdity itself.
Darrow--Mr. Bryan, doesn't the New Testament say whale?
Bryan--I am not sure. My impression is that it says fish; but it does not make so much difference; I merely called your attention that to where it says fish, it does not say whale.
Darrow--But in the New Testament it says whale, doesn't it?
Bryan--That may be true; I remember in my own mind what I read about it.
Ouch! Bryan just proved the point of many skeptics who claim to know the Bible better than Christians. Don't let this happen to you. If you haven't read the Bible, or studied it, you shouldn't be attempting to debate it. I'm sure that Bryan knew his Bible, but he didn't know it to the degree necessary to debate it. Skeptics read the Bible in order to legally pick it apart; Christians read the Bible in order to understand it. If you are going to debate a skeptic, you have to learn how to think like one. Just pretend that you are going to have a fight with your nit-picky, quarrelsome spouse about what the Bible really says. This should generate the right frame of mind.
Darrow--Now, you say, the big fish swallowed Jonah, and he remained- how long--three days, and then he spewed him up on the land. You believe that the big fish was made to swallow Jonah?
O.K., it's easy to see where the rest of this is going. How could Bryan have turned the tables on Darrow right from the start? Here is how the debate may have gone, had Bryan taken a stronger offensive position:
Darrow--Do you claim that everything in the Bible should be literally interpreted?
Bryan--I believe that the Bible should be literally interpreted in the truth it intends to reveal.
This is a loaded statement, and a very useful one, because it gives a Christian the leverage to get to the meat of any issue without getting eaten alive in the process.
Darrow--But when you read that Jonah swallowed the whale--or that the whale swallowed Jonah, excuse me please--how do you literally interpret that?
Bryan--Is that what you think the story of Jonah is about? The structural anomalies of marine life that would permit the swallowing of a man? If that's what you think the story of Jonah intends to reveal, I would question your reading comprehension.
Darrow--Do you, or do you not believe a big whale swallowed Jonah?
Bryan--I am saying that whether a person does or doesn't choose to believe that a whale literally swallowed Jonah is totally irrelevant to the truth being revealed in the story of Jonah. You are missing the truth entirely.
Darrow--What is the truth about Jonah, if not being swallowed by a whale?
Bryan--Thinking that the story of Jonah is about a man being swallowed by a whale is a rather superficial and inadequate summary. It would be the equivalent of saying that the story of Romeo & Juliet is about two disobedient kids who have no respect for their parent's wishes. While both summaries are true, they both miss the entire point of the stories involved. The story of Jonah is about a man who hears God quite plainly, but tries to escape his duty as God's prophet because he knows that God's message will not be well received.
Now the ball is in Bryan's court. From this point, I can't speculate how this particular line of discussion would have progressed, but you can see that there is a way to debate that allows you take the lead instead of being jerked around by your opponent.
When you debate a master of deception, you have to be familiar with the tricks of the trade. You have to be able to think 2 or 3 steps ahead of him and you have to be as wise as a serpent, yet gentle as a dove. Put yourself into the character of Pat Morita as Mr. Miyagi in the 'Karate Kid', and you won't go wrong. When your opponent tries to make a fool out of you, you have to make a fool out of your opponent - just once - but in a very witty way that intimidates him into not trying to make you appear foolish again. Bryan lacked the attitude that is necessary when one debates a vicious opponent and his inability to defend Christian fundamentalism shouldn’t be taken to indicate that fundamentalism is indefensible. However, that was the impression that the public got out of that trial, and not many Christian fundamentalists are doing much to correct it.
I played this game as an atheist for 12 years. Trying to trip Christians up in their faith became my hobby, and I discovered that I wasn't alone in my past time. I found a whole pack of rabid atheists on the Internet who shared my philosophy and who were intent on destroying Christianity, one believer at a time. Some of them were university professors and scientists. Some of them were college students. Most of them were extremely bright and driven by a hatred of Christianity. We would converge upon Christian forums and turn the places upside down with our relentless arguments and endless attacks. We would attack the false pillars of a Christian's faith.
I remember one 16 year old kid who was typical in that he struck up a dialogue with me in an effort to bring me to Christ. He told me the usual personal witness, about how Christ had changed him. I recall receiving a lengthy e-mail from him, describing in loving detail how Jesus had died and suffered on the cross. He wrote about how the nails were placed in his wrists and through his feet and how the weight of his body would tear at these wounds, causing him unbearable pain. He described how crucifixion caused a person to slowly asphyxiate. Then he tried to lay the guilt trip on me, telling me that Christ took this punishment on my behalf and that I owed Jesus my love. I wrote him back a reply: " You obviously have never read the recent Oxford study concerning 'Cruci-fiction'. This study, conducted in the archaeological digs of Rome in 1989, conclusively proved that Roman crucifixions did not take place prior to 350AD. It would have been impossible for Christ, in 33AD to have been executed in such a manner. You have bought into a lie. Christ did not die on a cross. He didn't die at all because he never lived. You need to grow up, accept the facts, and move on."
Of course, this was an outright lie that I had manufactured on the spur of the moment. I didn't even think that this kid would buy it, because it contained an obvious fallacy. If we had copies of the gospels dating to 250 AD and if the original gospels were dated to have been written within 100 AD, then how could they contain accounts of a method of crucifixion that didn't happen until 250 years later? At the very least, I thought that he would check to see if the reference was real. But he didn't. He replied, "I can't be a good person without believing in Christ. All of my friends are into drugs and sex, and I can't handle that kind of pressure without faith in God".
I wrote back, "You are giving me a fallacy that is known as an appeal to pity. In other words, you are begging me to allow you to persist in a belief that is false because you can't handle reality without it." I didn't have contact with this kid again until almost a year later. I saw him in an agnostic forum, and he had become one of the most foul mouthed critics of Christianity.
When I had first met him, this young man was no less born again than anyone making the claim. But the foundation for his faith was built upon the historical evidence for Jesus, and when that evidence was called into doubt, it destroyed his faith. He didn't love the truth enough to question a lie and he wasn't familiar with logic, which would have allowed him to spot such a glaring contradiction.
Now you may say that you will just stay away from the Internet and avoid having to deal with this onslaught of anti-Christian badgering . But what do you think happens when people log off of their computers? They don't stop being outspoken when they go back to the classroom or workplace. Most of the mail that I receive comes from college students who are experiencing intellectual doubt for the first time in their lives. They are bombarded with snide comments and introduced to every conceivable criticism of the Bible, by both their professors and fellow students. We have to face it; We can't hide from this type of attack and it's time for Christians to step up and begin equipping ourselves with the tools of intellectualism. We don’t need to be intellectuals to have faith in God, but we shouldn’t be afraid of acquiring the ability to intellectually defend our faith. We shouldn't be afraid to pick up a book, other than the one God has given to us, and take the time to read and study it. God instructs us to love Him with all of our heart, all of our soul, all of our strength and all of our mind! Loving the Lord with all of our mind may involve getting our butts into a library, now and then. We can't afford to be lazy stewards of the truth that God has given us. If we don't take the time to learn how to contend earnestly for the faith, I fear that more and more people will be able to casually dismiss Christianity altogether, without ever having examined it with any depth.
INTRO TO LOGIC FOR CHRISTIANS WHO LIKE TO DEBATE
Christians need a quick logic course designed just for them ... And here it is! This small presentation is in no way complete; it is just an introduction to the basics, but it is geared to the arguments of religious matters.
BASIC ELEMENTS OF LOGIC
Logic is the science of correct reasoning. It is a tool that can be used to determine the truth value of opinions.
When opinions conflict, they can result in an ‘argument’. This type of argument is not synonymous with a 'quarrel', although an examination of an argument can indeed lead to one.
The Structure of Argument
Every argument begins with a claim in the form of a proposition. A premise is an assertion that serves as a basis for an argument.
Examples of propositions: Frank is a Catholic. Susan is a member of Church X. Pastors can't be trusted. The pews in my church are old and creaky.
Each proposition is either true or false, but logic analyzes how the truth of propositions is connected with the truth of other propositions.
An argument is a set of two or more propositions that are related to each other in a way that lends support for a conclusion to be drawn. The logical progression in thought that takes a thinker from proposition to conclusion, is called 'inference'. "Frank is a Catholic," "Susan is a member of Church X," "Pastors can't be trusted," "The pews in my church are old and creaky," is just a collection of unrelated propositions; they are not joined in a way where the truth or falsity of one would have any bearing on the truth or falsity on another and there is no inference.
We can construct a simple argument by taking one of the above propositions and supplying it with other supporting propositions and then analyze the relationships between the propositions in order to infer a conclusion.
1. Susan is a member of Church X.
2. All members of Church X tithe 10% of their income.
3. Therefore, Susan tithes 10% of her income.
When the truth of the premises guarantees the truth of the conclusion, the inference taking place is called 'deductive reasoning'.
Deductive inference can be obvious, for obvious reasons!
When the truth of the premises make the conclusion only conceivable or likely to be true, the inference taking place is called 'inductive reasoning'. Inductive reasoning is considered logical when its premises present reasonable evidence or support for the truth of its conclusion.
This is why it is inappropriate for Christians to claim they can 'prove' that God exists. 'Proving' involves a guarantee of the truth of the conclusion, and outside of axiomatic and self-evidential truths, very little of value can be 'proven'. But Christians can certainly claim that they have evidence and use inductive reasoning to support their conclusions.
A violation in the rules of logic results in a fallacy. The best way to not commit a fallacy is to know what one is. Here are some fallacies designed especially for you!
COMMON FALLACIES IN LOGICAL THINKING
LATIN TERM
DEFINITION
THEIST FALLACY
ATHEIST FALLACY
False Dilemma; Excluded Middle
Either the Disciples were liars, or Jesus rose from the dead.
One can either acknowledge the logic of science or be a Christian.
Argumentum ad ignorantiam
Argument from Ignorance
God can’t be proven not to exist, therefore He does exist.
God can’t be proven to exist, therefore He doesn’t exist.
Slippery Slope
If you vote Democrat, pretty soon the Liberals will be making the laws and the next thing you know, there will be a law that forbids you to pray before meals.
If you vote Republican, pretty soon the Christians will be making the laws and the next thing you know, they will be executing people for blasphemy.
Appeal to Consequences
You must believe in God, otherwise life would have no objective meaning.
Life has no objective meaning, therefore, there is no God.
Argumentum ad populum
Appeal to Popularity
85% of Americans believe in God, therefore, God must be real.
95% of scientists believe in evolution, therefore, it had to have taken place.
Argumentum ad hominem
Attacking the Person, not the Argument
You may argue that God doesn’t exist, but that’s only because you want to justify your immorality.
You may argue that God exists, but that’s only because you can’t deal with reality.
Argumentum ad verecundiam
Appeal to Authority
The end of the world will take place on Memorial Day. I read it in the Enquirer.
Arachaya S. has proven that Jesus is a myth based on the movement of the sun.
Anonymous/Fictitio us Authorities
Studies show that 72% of people who ascribe to atheism end up in prison.
They have proven that crucifixion didn’t take place in Rome until after 350 AD.
Petitio Principii
Begging the question
We know that God exists, since the Bible says God exists. What the Bible says must be true, since God wrote it and God never lies.
We know that man has to have evolved from an ancestor of ape, because evolution is the only scientific theory that explains our existence through natural causes. Science only recognizes natural causes for our existence, so evolution must be true.
Equivocation
Muslims believe in God and Christians believe in God. We shouldn’t argue because we both believe in God.
If God made all of us, then we are all His children and no good God would send His children to Hell.
Non-Sequitur
If science was always right in its theories, evolution would be a fact. But science has been wrong before, and so evolution is false.
If God was real, then we could expect His followers to uphold His morals. But hypocrisy reigns and so God isn’t real.
Stay tuned for updates and more detailed analyses! In the meantime, look up logic sites online. Logic doesn't have to be a drab, emotionless pursuit. It's an exciting adventure that will help you to make your case for faith!
PRACTICAL DEBATE TIPS
A good debate will carry both the promise of intimacy and the risk of your argument's destruction. In order for your opponent to destroy your argument, he must first seek to understand it. In order for you to successfully rebut his counter-argument, you will have to make an attempt to grasp his line of reasoning. Personally, the prospect of being understood has always outweighed the risk of defeat for me. Here are some practical debate tips:
1) Never address your opponent as 'Sir', 'Mr. Soandso', 'Mrs. Soandso', 'Dr. Whosoever', or 'Professor Noitall', even if your opponent has professionally acquired the last two titles. It will give your audience the impression that your opponent has somehow earned your respect and that he is your superior. If your rival insists on calling you by your earned title or traditional formality, let him but don't reciprocate. You can successfully conduct an entire debate without ever having to refer to the opposition by name. Embedding your opponent's first name in every other sentence can be very condescending:
Well, Marvin, perhaps you are unable to comprehend the complexity of what I am demonstrating. You do realize, Marvin, that one plus one equals two?
Don't be the first to resort to this nonsense, but if your adversary does, I suggest that you match his attitude, only for the sake of an even argument.
2) Refrain from using sarcasm in text-only debate forums. If the meaning of a statement depends on the tone in which it is read, you are taking the chance that it will be misinterpreted. I occasionally give in to my affinity for sarcasm and the results are never good! Even though my intentions are to display some good natured ribbing, they are frequently misconstrued as sincere hostility. For example, In the Morality & Meaning Debate, which took place recently on TheologyWeb.com, I sarcastically blamed my opponent for causing discord when the conflict was very obviously caused by a fellow Christian. Overall, it is better to sacrifice humour and wit for clarity in serious discussion. Save your biting barbs for the less intelligent, name-calling type of foe who hasn't the capacity to understand or carry on an intelligent conversation.
3) Stay focused and limit your discussion to the main argument. Every now and then, you will meet a hyper individual who hops around the discussion like a kangaroo with a hot foot. The debate will start off simple enough. He will ask one question or make one comment and you will return a paragraph explaining your position. He will then send you a 15 page rebuttal, filled with misconception about what it was that you said, and introduce a dozen new points of contention. He will expect you to return a 45 page counter-argument, addressing every point and misunderstanding, and will claim victory by default when you fail to spend the rest of your life replying to him. This type of person usually doesn't know the difference between presenting an argument and being argumentative. If you are intent on showing such a person the error of his ways, you will have to constantly keep the original debate on track and ignore all of the flapping red herrings. Keep your presentation as short and concise as possible, because the more you write, the more he will misconstrue. Dissecting his argument into its basic syllogism for your analysis can be very effective because it will limit his ability to wiggle around. Be relentless and keep pressing home your point, even if it means repeating yourself.
4) End the debate with The Final Word. There are those who believe that whoever has the final word wins the debate. Obviously, this mindset could severely restrict one's non-debating activities! You need not continue to beat a dead horse; just make sure it isn't twitching and pronounce it dead. Say something to the effect of "I believe that we have exhausted all avenues of the subject at hand. I maintain my position that [insert position here] is correct and that you have failed to demonstrate how your position overcomes [insert his argument's shortcomings here]".
5) Realize that disagreement does not constitute refutation. I get the impression that many people think that their disagreement with another person's argument disproves the argument. Unless your opponent can logically demonstrate where your argument fails, his disagreement remains an opinion. There is no shame in agreeing to disagree.
6) Realize that agreement does not constitute substantiation. Conversely, unless you can logically present your argument, agreement with your point of view is mere opinion.
7) Keep your integrity. It's all right to be hard hitting, but it isn't fair to sucker punch a potential rival. Don't copy and paste private e-mails to debate forums or web sites where the author of the e-mail isn't even present to defend his points against attack.
8) Always let a good opponent know that he or she is appreciated. Some people who engage in religious debate are sincerely interested in the truth. Most, atheists and theists alike, are not. When you find such a rarity, thank them for their participation and perhaps they will agree to debate with you again."
Witchcraft: the real truth exsposed! Some personal Testimonies of Deliverance from Darkness!
Can God deliver from deep depression and darkness? The answer to this question is of course..YES...YES...YES!!!
Just think about it....If your "god " can't deliver from anything...WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU SERVE IT? If God is God then He should be able to accomplish anything no matter what it my be..right? Well I'm here to tell you that JESUS CHRIST is God and HE CAN AND WILL SAVE YOU NO MATTER WHAT YOU'VE DONE...he love's you deeply.
The personal testimony of Clarence F. Sargent.....
C.S. Lewis once said: “A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell.” and Albert Einstein said:“What I see in Nature is a magnificent structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of humility. This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism”
My name is Clarence; I’m a Minister of the Gospel of the true and living God. My life was changed in Aug of the year 1979 when I accepted Jesus into my heart. I now ask you to sit back and listen to what I have to say, don’t judge what I’m saying before I finish. I have no illusions that I will change your mind about what God can and will do for your life; BUT I do know for a fact that IF you will believe what I’m telling you today that your life will never be the same. I was raised in a small town called Taunton Mass after having moved from Ellsworth Maine where I was born where to this day, I do not know who my real mother and father were but because I know of the Sovereignty of God and his personal care of my life, I can go on with my life knowing his plans have my best interest at heart. In his plan, I was adopted at birth by a very loving couple who was childless and really wanted me, my mother Mary a back-slidden Baptist and my Father Alexander Sargent an agnostic when it came to all things spiritual. But realize that I only found out about my adoption at 29 years old; long after both my mom and my dad had died and I had already become a Christian, I received a letter from the social security administration telling me of a Sister who wished to get in touch with me. My Sister Shirley told me that my real mom ( A full blooded native American Indian) had wanted an abortion because she could not care for me and my siblings (this is the ultimate rejection of a child before they have time to ever see the world.)
She was actually at the doors of the clinic when some pro-life people talked her into adoption instead of murdering me, thank God for those who will stand up and stand out in this world for something good; if they had not, I would be among the millions a dead babies in a dumpster somewhere.
I think you know where I stand on abortion as a result of this personal experience?
I was rasied in a lower middle class family and not used to the so-called "good things in life" as far as wealth is concerned but I was loved and that’s what really mattered anyway.
The personal testimony of Clarence F. Sargent.....
C.S. Lewis once said: “A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell.” and Albert Einstein said:“What I see in Nature is a magnificent structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of humility. This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism”
My name is Clarence; I’m a Minister of the Gospel of the true and living God. My life was changed in Aug of the year 1979 when I accepted Jesus into my heart. I now ask you to sit back and listen to what I have to say, don’t judge what I’m saying before I finish. I have no illusions that I will change your mind about what God can and will do for your life; BUT I do know for a fact that IF you will believe what I’m telling you today that your life will never be the same. I was raised in a small town called Taunton Mass after having moved from Ellsworth Maine where I was born where to this day, I do not know who my real mother and father were but because I know of the Sovereignty of God and his personal care of my life, I can go on with my life knowing his plans have my best interest at heart. In his plan, I was adopted at birth by a very loving couple who was childless and really wanted me, my mother Mary a back-slidden Baptist and my Father Alexander Sargent an agnostic when it came to all things spiritual. But realize that I only found out about my adoption at 29 years old; long after both my mom and my dad had died and I had already become a Christian, I received a letter from the social security administration telling me of a Sister who wished to get in touch with me. My Sister Shirley told me that my real mom ( A full blooded native American Indian) had wanted an abortion because she could not care for me and my siblings (this is the ultimate rejection of a child before they have time to ever see the world.)
She was actually at the doors of the clinic when some pro-life people talked her into adoption instead of murdering me, thank God for those who will stand up and stand out in this world for something good; if they had not, I would be among the millions a dead babies in a dumpster somewhere.
I think you know where I stand on abortion as a result of this personal experience?
I was rasied in a lower middle class family and not used to the so-called "good things in life" as far as wealth is concerned but I was loved and that’s what really mattered anyway.
BUT all that was soon to change because of a stupid decision of mine. I began to practice the occult in my teen years; but it all started one afternoon when I was 6 years old sitting in front of the “boob tube” watching an innocent television show called “Bewitched” from the moment that show aired I was hooked on the concept at least, of witchcraft; very innocently at first but nevertheless hooked. The Craft appealed to me on so many levels both physically and spiritually. I was already an introvert with very few friends and low self esteem in school, other than the few "out-casts" smoking dope in the parking lot of my school. And being an only child caused me to develop many imaginary friends. Now I believe this is Healthy, to a point, but as I grew up these imaginary friends transformed to drive my interest in the Occult and Drugs. They were demonic in nature and not the "imaginary friends" I thought they were. My interest was peaked and driven by these "familiar spirits" while watching that show and I went headlong into a downward spiral from there. But EVEN AS a child I knew that " Hollywood Witch-craft " was not the real thing; which is the reason I desired to know the real practices and THEREIN lies the true danger of parents allowing their children to view and read things WITHOUT PROPER SUPERVISION; the television is NOT a babysitter. Please understand, that it’s alright for an older child to be curious about these things. Just as long as YOU the Christian parent are there to guide them away from the "evil nature" of the content. Explaining to them why God hates those things in a reasonable manner not to frighten but inform. Let's face it;it’s the great special effects that are the lure into the trap. But that will not stand before a holy God at the judgment seat as your excuse why your family fell victim to the Crafts lies.
I dedicated myself without any direction from adults, to find out about this ancient earth religion. As I began studying and looking for deeper truths in the world of magic and sorcery I was witness both to its "beauty of focus" and its pure "savagery of intent".
It wasn’t until after my adopted Mom died when I was only 17 that I was free to do as I pleased....and boy did I do as I pleased!
I jumped headlong into drugs, Drinking, and Partying while trying to keep up a c+ to b average in high school. Failing many courses because a lack of focus on them and because many of my teachers just wanted me out of their classes passing me through without the proper training. I became a Wiccan but only as a private practitioner taking a course in the art of magic by Gavin and Yvonne Frost.
The Wiccan fascination I had did not last very long as I was hungry for a darker side; the more power and knowledge of the occult the better. I began to delve deeper and deeper into the so-called "Deep things of Occult Knowledge“. I found myself reading Anton LaVeys "Satanic Bible" just to rebel against the God who I felt “TOOK MY MOM FROM ME”.
I began mixing in Aleister Crowley's works on magic with the Wiccan practices. I would study these books and many others on my lunch and library breaks. I found that the the "Man, Myth, and Magic" encyclopedia series was a great source of knowledge and read from it every day. But Just about anything dealing with works on Witchcraft I would give place to, "Drawing down the Moon" was a favorite of mine.
The occult became an obsession! A lifestyle that I was hooked on just like my drug use, it became a “Mind-altering“ experience. I learned still more from friends and people I didn't know closely. Many of them were Questionable at best but they knew what I wanted to know, how to tell fortunes and use Tarot cards and playing cards to make money on the side.
I began to cast spells on others, while I worshiped the horned god and the goddess. I mixed all this knowledge together to form my own form of the Craft, never being a conformist I made it my own and would put it all in my journal called a "Witches Book of Shadows".
The Book of Shadows is a Witch's greatest tool. It provides a place for all personal Craft secrets, your spell work, rituals, family traditions if you have any, almost anything a Witch can think or act on is contained in this book.
As I figured out what my personal practices were I would write them in this journal.
This was my personal "bible" to turn to anytime I needed help with a spell or spiritual concept, its ancient name is called a "Grimoire".
I soon found out that when I would cast spells of evil intent on those I hated or disliked it began to work and I would also work "good magic" on those I liked that worked also. Everything seemed to be going my way. But the problems I was going through at this time in life had nothing to do with what happened to me in the daytime hours when I worshiped other gods and goddesses. It wasn't even my study time in the craft when I gained deeper knowledge and power as a black witch. My real problems began at night time, it was an issue of fear and discontent both in my dreams and waking hours. I was in a constant deeply seated fear at the height of my power as a witch. And no matter what anyone tells you about the Craft; good or bad it will produce the same results that any lifestyle outside of God’s grace produces, and that is DEATH IN YOUR LIFE.
Deut. 7:26 says:
“Do not bring a detestable thing into your house or you, like it, will be set apart for destruction. Utterly abhor and detest it, for it is set apart for destruction.”
Lev. 20:27; 19:26 the second part of the verse says:
“A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist (wizard KJV) among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads. Do not practice divination or sorcery.”
Lev. 20:6 says: “I will set my face against the person who turns to mediums and spiritists (wizards KJV) to prostitute himself by following them, and I will cut him off from his people.”
Is. 47:13-14 says clearly:
“ Let your astrologers come forward, those stargazers who make predictions month by month, let them save you from what is coming upon you. Surely they are like stubble; the fire will burn them up. They cannot even save themselves from the power of the flame. “
I am a Christian now and I’m proud of it, but I’m NOT RELIGIOUS and will not fit willingly into any denominational mold.
I mean let’s be real here-Religion has killed and maimed it’s share of truth at the alter of good intention JUST as atheism has murdered it’s share FREE-THOUGHT.
Let’s face real facts here for once shall we? BOTH RELIGION AND HUMANISM have dropped the ball as far as getting it right is concerned, so let’s not blow smokescreens up each others HINDQUARTERS about what’s true and what’s not.
A personal relationship is what God requires, he’s never been interested in “Church-ianity” or any form of man-made silliness.
It’s about YOU and God, and not about YOU FITTING INTO A MOLD of like minded minds. I am always amazed when those who hate God say “I cannot be a part of a faith that attacks science and reality.” as if science were a humanistic invention, if you believe that you must have failed in history. Science has many Christian roots. Most of the early scientists were Christians such as Copernicus, Galileo, Pascal, Isaac Newton, Johannes Keppler, Robert Boyle, Louis Pasteur, Jean Henri Fabre, Michael Faraday, and John Ambrose Fleming.
These great scientists operated within a Christian framework.
An interesting fact is that the vast majority of all scientific development has come out of western civilization, what are the odds of that happening? And IT had Christianity as its basis to top that off.
The idea is that the “laws of nature” came from Christianity, NOT HUMANISM; not to mention that the concepts of subduing nature and being stewards of nature are right from the first book of the Bible--Genesis and not in any way the invention of witches.
THAT IS WHY I view God as a rational and trustworthy person, which implies automatically that His creation is rational and orderly and thus can be examined FOR EVIDENCE OF HIS FINGERPRINTS.
Nature in the Christian view (as compared to our non-Christian worldviews such as witchcraft) is that nature is no longer an object of fear and worship, because let‘s face it…we only “worship in ignorance” what we “Fear in ignorance”. God on the other hand only DEMANDS KNOWLEDGEABLE WORSHIP. It is “False Religion” that MYSTIFIES GOD to the point that you can’t relate to him BUT must “BLINDLY FOLLOW PRECEPTS AND RULES THAT MAKE NO SENSE” to a freethinking mind. We need to do a self-check, to make sure we get rid of all of our idols, good luck charms, crosses, medallions, and demonic symbols. We must repent fully of trusting in fate, destiny, and luck: and put our whole trust in the Living Christ, follow Him wholeheartedly without exception to our fears from the past.
Trusting in fate or luck is clearly a dependence upon evil spirits which I knew as “familiars.”
Now getting back to my testimony, as I alluded to earlier God’s plan for my life was set long before I was ever born and no matter what bad decisions I was making; up to this point, in fact I was on the very path to running into his power; that I had been running from, because he had the nerve to put two Christians into my life that could not be SCARED OR MOVED by my appearance or actions.
REMEMBER I was a full out witch in both dress and lifestyle, they kept coming anyway, day after day and that impressed me. They were always inviting me to go to their church and NEVER GIVE UP ON ME!
And so, one fateful Wednesday night Bible Study I sat at the BACK of this little Church of God in Cheyenne Wyoming. I came into the sanctuary half Drunk and half High, not wanting to be there at all.
Much of the service I cannot recall BUT I do remember hearing the statement that God “did not hate me for what I'd done, no matter how bad but that HIS LAWS REQUIRED HIS JUDGMENT on my soul”
God’s LOVE reached down and touched this Witch and suffered him NOT to live a life without hope, reviving me into NEW LIFE with Christ!
I witnessed a literal shaft of Light shine down into my darkened mind and for the first time in over 8 years I could think for myself without the "VOICES OF DEMONS" interfering with my thoughts. That evening the "night in my soul" became "DAYTIME" for me and now I can proudly say I am a new creation. All the OLD dark things "HAVE PASSED AWAY" as useless relics of the past and Jesus is my Lord and Savior!
Of course there are those who will think "Well, that's you, you were "special to God" and he loved you then, more than me now. I've done too many "sick and unforgivable" things for God to love me!" THAT IS A LIE!
God loves ALL MANKIND EQUALLY AND WITHOUT BEING PARTIAL TO ANY PERSON.
It is Satan, the MASTER of the HALF-TRUTH that tells us these things.
It is only because HE LOST IT ALL TO HIS OWN PRIDE that he wants YOU to suffer for his stupidity by following his path.
Don't let him lie to you, God thinks as much of you as he does of his own son. Just give him your heart and he'll do the rest!
A spiritual adventure of another witch:
"My walk in darkness began when I was about three. I was sexually abused by my father. Unable to cope with the trauma, I developed alternate personalities to carry out the everyday demands of life. I retreated from life as much as I could, and had no real friends until Eighth grade.
Growing up in a hostile, abusive environment, I became addicted to seconals as a teenager, and I experimented with a great many drugs. My preference was always LSD. I dated and married abusive men. There was much violence in my life, a lot of death, a lot of horror. I never knew peace. Because my father read the Bible a lot, and shouted scriptures, I was confused about Jesus.
I became fascinated by the occult. I believed that my will, if strong and directed properly, could change anything. This is one of the foundations of witchcraft, which I started to embrace. I found the study appealing at the time, though difficult.
I began to be haunted in my dreams by a woman dancing in a way I had never seen before. It was breathtakingly beautiful. Supposing she must be another witch who wanted to teach me something, I began looking for her.
I was getting sick. Physically, the doctors could find nothing wrong. I was getting thinner, and increasingly, the spirits I thought I controlled were beginning to control me - taking over the body, while I was somewhere on the ceiling watching the horror they inflicted.
I called my best friend, who knew Jesus. She said, 'The Lord will bring a sword between us if you don't come out of witchcraft.' She had never known I was involved in witchcraft. I had kept her from knowing my beliefs. Then she asked me to visit a church where she knew they weren't afraid to help abused women. She asked me to promise to just sit through one service. I promised. She knew I would do all I could to keep my word.
I'm glad of that promise, because it was the only thing that kept me in my seat. I had been in and out of all kinds of churches, but none of them affected me because they were spiritually dead. The presence of the Lord was not there. But it was very different in this place! I was ill before I reached the door. Nauseous, and in pain - tearing pain - I rode an emotional rollercoaster. It was like some bad drug having an alien affect on me. Suddenly, I wanted to hurt people in the church. I wanted to hit them and tear the skin off their faces. I knew I had no personal problem with these people, to cause all these feelings to erupt. Then, when the haze of pain began to clear, who should I see dancing before the altar worshipping the Lord but the woman in my dreams!
Now, beside the promise, I had another reason to fight to stay. I was beginning to realize that there must really and truly be a God, a supreme God, just like all the Bible stories. That woman in my dreams was here. I gripped the chair in front of me until my knuckles turned white, and I stayed.
The pastor was such a gifted speaker, that even the pain and nausea began to fade as I concentrated on what he was saying. He was talking about Jesus but in a real way - one that I could relate to in everyday life. He had my attention.
As he was beginning to draw to a close, he stopped, as though he could hear something that we couldn't. Then he said, 'There is someone here whose only wish is to die, because she is so tired. Rae? Rachel? Rachel, will you come to me?'
In one overwhelming second, I suddenly knew that this God loved me, called me by name, and wanted to know me. Without hesitation I stood up. I had tried committing suicide several times in my life. I was so tired; all I had really wanted was to die. But God knew this. He had to have told this man, who was a stranger to me and yet had called me by name. I had to get to the front of the church! But the spirits took over and the battle was on. They recognized the pastor, and told him in the ugliest voice ever to come from my body, 'I know you!'
The pastor, must have somehow known by the Holy Spirit about these spirits. 'You will stop tearing the child,' he told them.
The pain stopped, but I began slithering like a snake. Then pray-ers in the church surrounded me. I couldn't breathe. I discovered later that that is an important sign. When evil spirits quit trying to intimidate, and show off by making the person unable to breathe, they are about to exit the body.
When I accepted Jesus, I immediately saw a glorious Being that I could not lift my unworthy face to look at. But the light . . . ! I can't describe it! There was a sword in his hands. It was covered in leaping flames. 'Take my sword,' he told me.
When I reached up for it I came into his world - Christ's realm. I was whole, and crying a river of tears - me who before would never allow myself to cry. There was healing in those tears.
I was also aware of the fear that the demons were in in those final moments. The Bible really is true: Every knee shall bow before Jesus. He is indeed Lord of Lords, King of Kings, and the Savior of our soul. There is no life and no peace without Jesus.
This is my birth experience into the Kingdom of the Living God. As 2 Timothy 1:7 says:
"For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power, of love and of self-discipline."
Fear was the first spirit to enter me, but one of the first things I learned is that God is love."
I was a sold-out, goddess-worshipping witch!
. . .by William Schnoebelen
"I was a witch! I was a sold-out, goddess-worshipping witch!
When my "lady" and I chipped the ice out of a stream in the middle of Iowa wilderness to bathe and then celebrate the March equinox naked under the stars, we were totally consumed with zeal for the Wicca. We drove 170 miles one way every weekend to teach classes in Wicca in a car with a bumper sticker which said "In Goddess We Trust!"
We were kicked out of almost every apartment we tried to rent for wild circle dances and burning frankincense; and we had a firebomb thrown into one temple because we dared to publicly proclaim the goddess!
Wicca is one of the more seductive deceptions that Satan has come up with.(1) It is the contemporary name for the cult of so-called "white" witchcraft or Neo-Paganism, which has been enjoying a renaissance in the United States.
It claims to be a "back to nature" religion which worships the sky and earth, and thus has attracted many adherents among those sympathetic to environmental and ecology issues. Yet, for all its charm and nostalgic fantasy, Wicca drew me into the deepest quagmire of satanic evil imaginable.
Almost everything we did back then raised eyebrows. Regrettably, we see people today doing things openly that we had to do in secret. We see books that used to only be available in dark, musty occult bookstores now being sold openly in shopping malls. The meditation practices we taught in secret witchcraft circles are now being taught in "respectable" churches.
Naturally, we believed we were doing good. I was a sincere devotee of the chief deity of Wicca, the Great Mother. At first I believed the rites we did were for the benefit of humanity and the earth itself. I also believed what I was told: that there was a profound difference between the Wicca and those called satanists or devil-worshipers.
I thought that the whole meaning of Wicca was beneficial rituals to nature deities like Pan, Diana or Cernunnos; and of course rites of passage and initiation. I stood, blindfolded, naked and bound at the edge of the Circle "which is placed between the worlds." I heard the words of the Great Mother and felt the prick of the swordpoint challenging my courage. I was anointed as a "Priest of the Goddess" and learned her secret name. I gave my life to her service.
I truly believed that she was the One "who was with me from the beginning, and who was attained at the end of desire." I walked the earth and felt her a living, breathing thing; and I worshiped her as "Holy Mother Earth."
It took me sixteen years of ardent devotion to her and the Craft to find out that I was terribly wrong. I had to learn the hard way that my only hope for true spiritual fulfillment in life was Jesus Christ!
I finally learned in the most graphic fashion imaginable that the difference between witchcraft or Wicca and satanism is actually non-existent. To be sure, an anthropologist or sociologist of religion might find them different, but such distinctions mean little when you are gambling with the eternal fate of your own immortal soul.
The actual spiritual difference between Wicca and satanism might best be illustrated this way: Practicing Wicca is like having a hand-grenade blow up in your face, in terms of the spiritual impact. Practicing satanism is like having a neutron bomb detonate in your face. The difference is there and discernable, but it is still an utter disaster for you, either way.
In eternal perspective, the disaster of Wicca is altogether real and no less dangerous than that neutron bomb.
Why Should YOU Believe This Warning?
Before we discuss this subject, allow me to give my credentials. I was initiated into the Alexandrian Wicca on Imbolc, February 2, 1973 and made a High Priest and Magus is September of the same year. That summer my lady and I were also promoted to the High Priestly rank in the Druidic Craft of the Wise. We also helped establish a Church of All Worlds "nest" in Milwaukee and studied under Gavin and Yvonne Frost and their Church and School of Wicca.
Wicca has many "denominations" or traditions. Some are large and well-known, like the Alexandrian, Gardnerian, Druidic, Welsh Traditionalist, Gerogian, Dianic and Church of Wicca. Others are as small as a single coven or 13, or even a family tradition.
My wife and I established covens all over the Midwest; Dubuque and Davenport, Iowa; Madison and Milwaukee, Wisconsin; and Chicago. Over the years, we advanced to higher levels of witchcraft. Up to our departure from the city of Milwaukee in 1984, we were presiding over one of the oldest and largest networks of covens in the Midwest.
About a year after becoming a High Priest (1974), I was told by our initiators that Wicca was not what it seemed. Although much of the extant literature written by witches (and Dr. Margaret Murray's work(2)) would lead one to believe that Wicca is a survival of the ancient pagan fertility cults, especially of Northern Europe and the British Isles; there is not a shred of real historical proof for any connection between Bronze Age cults and modern witchcraft.
I learned from our initiators that it seemed that Wicca is, in fact, a manufactured religion not much older than this century. There did not seem to be evidence for any Book of Shadows (a combined "bible" and ritual book for Wiccans) much older than the 1910's!
You see, Wicca is one of Satan's "nicer" creations, tailor-made for the last half of this century. Although it may have existed for perhaps a century at most, it "came out of the broom closet" in 1951, when the British laws against witchcraft were repealed.(3) It is nothing really new, but its packaging is subtly different, tailored to a world strangling on its own technology and dying for romance, idealism and meaning.
A Cult of Deception
You may say: "So you got sucked in too deep. So what? I've been a witch for years and never got into that satanic junk. It's just a Christian myth for real losers. As long as I stay where I am, I'm cool. I'm happy!" That may be so, but do you honestly want to belong to a cult that deals in deception?
Let's look at the word, "Wicca," as an example. The OXFORD ENGLISH DICTIONARY reveals that the word does not mean "wise one." It means twisted, bent, or warped. Even Margot Adler admits that the word has its roots in the Indo-European roots "wic" or "weik" meaning "to bend or to turn." Of course, she tries to put the best possible face on it by saying that:
"According to this view, a Witch would be a woman ( or man) skilled in the art of shaping, bending and changing reality." (4)
Elsewhere, she asserts that:
"The lexicographical (dictionary) definitions of witch are rather confusing and bear little relation to the definitions given by Witches themselves."(5)
But this is playing games, the same sort of word games most cultists play to conceal the truth. By this standard, anyone, including Anton LaVey, could say they were a witch and be right.
Yet you should hear the howls of rage among the Neo-Pagan community when even Gavin and Yvonne Frost first claimed to be witches. They couldn't be witches, they were monotheists, fakes and gay-bashers! So all of a sudden there WAS an objective standard of what makes one a witch. Yet like many things in occultism, it vanishes like mist when you try and pin it down.
In my own personal development as a witch, and the development of almost all our colleagues, I found that after about five or six yeaars it was necessary to begin pursuing the study of the "Higher Wisdom" of Satan in order to keep growing. Magick is like a drug. You keep needing more in order to stay at a level at which you feel fulfilled. There is no end to it!
If you've stayed a Wiccan or "white" witch for a long time, it's only because you don't have enough of the Promethean itch to grow. OR it may be that you have many Christian friends or loved ones praying for you. Did you ever think of that?"
FootnotesIntroduction1. Wicca, pronounced "Wicha," contrary to popular practice, is the term most witches prefer to use for their faith. They pronounce it "Wikka" and frequently assert that it means "Wise One."2. Margaret Murray's books, THE WITCH CULT IN WESTERN EUROPE and THE GOD OF THE WITCHES, did much to popularize the concept that Wicca is a survival of ancient religions. In recent years, though, their scholarship has been seriously challenged.3. See Margot Adier's DRAWING DOWN THE MOON, Beacon Press, Boston, 1986 rev. ed., p.46.4. Adler.p.11.5. lbid.p.10.
* This chapter was used by permission from William Schnoebelen's book Wicca:Satan's Little White Lie". &nb sp;
Kimberly's Story - From Wicca to Christ
"When I read Candace's story I couldn't help but feel an eerie sence of familiarity. Much of what had happened to her happened to me, just not to the same harsh extent.
Growing up I had never been to church (beyond the occasional wedding) and my family never really spoke much of God or religion. We were a happy family and maybe that's why we never talked about God or questioned his existence. We never had anything bad happen to make us ask "why?". Then I became a teenager.
I don't know why I was attracted to the rebellious side of being a teen. I wasn't doing it on purpose, it's just what I really wanted to be like. My "crowd" wasn't a bad one, at least we didn't think so, but we got into trouble now and then. I started smoking, ciggerattes and marijuana,drinking and staying out all night and lying to my Mother. I was having sex at 13 and pregnancy scares at 14. I didn't care, I was having fun. Then it all went downhill.
I had broken up with my boyfriend of 5 years, and I was only 16. I started to do anything for any guy who would give me the time of day. Then I did get pregnant, and I thought maybe I had found love again, but it wasn't so. He never beat me but the verbal abuse I put up with threw me into a deep depresion. I tried so hard to be a good mother and house wife (even though we were not married) and nothing was ever good enough. He called me a slut and a whore. He refused to claim his daughter when he knew I was with no one else. He called me fat and lazy while I was pregnant. Sometimes I wished he would have beaten me. It probably would have hurt less. When I thought I could not take it anymore and was on the verge of suicide I happened upon something that would change my life.
I was watching an afternoon talk show one day. The subject was a new religion called Wicca. I heard them talk of thier love and worship of nature and all living creatures and the spiritual force of the earth and I was hooked. I went out and found everything I could on wicca. I trained and practiced and finally I proclaimed myself a bonafide witch. Wicca had opened up a whole new world for me. It gave me hope, it helped me with struggles, and it made me friends. It was a community where I belonged. For once I was happy. I found the courage to take my 3 year old daughter and leave her father, and it was the best choice I had ever made. I moved into my own apartment and I was in total bliss. No more complaining if something wasn't cleaned right or put away in the right place. I was finally on my own. But on your own can be a very lonely place.
I started to pray to my God and Goddess for someone to love me the way I needed to be loved. Someone that understood me. And it happened. He was perfect in every way and we really got along great. We saw each other for a couple of weeks and then we slept together and I never heard from him again. I found out a while later that he was a virgin and that he had only used me to "get it over with" so to speak. I was crushed. What self-esteem I had rebuilt was gone and I went wild. I started sneaking into bars and taking guys home I didn't even know for meaningless sex. Sometimes these guys were 30 or 40 years old and I was only 19 going on 20. I had gone from having had slept with nine people to twenty seven people in two months. I had given up all hope of ever finding someone to love. Then I met Jeff.
I met him while I was working at one of my twelve jobs that I had had in that year. I had never seen him before but I just couldn't get him out of my head. Well he kept coming back and it turned out that his ex-girlfriend was my co-worker and he had her ask me out. I said yes and we went to the only place I knew how to talk to guys at, the bar. We hit it off instantly and I could tell that he wasn't like other guys. At the end of the night he asked for my phone number but I knew as I handed it to him that he would never call. Much to my surprise the phone rang the next day and it was him asking me out on a second date. I twas the start of a long and beautiful relationship. But there was one problem. My beliefs were a conflict to his.
He was a strict Christian and I was a witch. He never said anything but I could tell it bothered him. So finally one night we sat down and talked about it. I explained to him that it was what I had chosen because I knew of no other choice. He would talk to me about God and the Bible and I had no idea of anything that he said. So he taught me. I resented it at first but then I started to see so many things falling in to place that I had given dumb luck and Wicca credit for. He explained to me that Christianity was not a religion, it was a relationship. He never got frustrated, even when I did and was patient.
Almost a year into our relationship I accepted Jesus Christ and became a Christian. I have never been happier. I realize now that my ultimate unhappiness came from not knowing where I was going. I know now. "
Kimberly S. Pa
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